Libraries Lead!
Libraries Lead! is a provocative podcast about all things information & library hosted by Beth Patin (Assistant Professor, School of Information Studies, Syracuse U), Dave Lankes (Professor, iSchool, U of Texas), and Mike Eisenberg (Dean/Professor Emeritus, iSchool, U of Washington). Information age opportunities and challenges affect every aspect of human existence. We wrestle with such topics as social justice, political unrest, mis- and dis-information, kids, family and adult living; education and learning; work, employment, training and jobs; recreation, entertainment, and play; disasters & emergency preparedness with a focus on libraries & information science, services, and systems. 4 segments in approx. 1 hour: WAZZUP, AI WATCH, MAIN TOPIC, and AWESOME LIBRARY THINGY. For Resources & References for All Episodes please go to: https://tinyurl.com/libleadresources
Libraries Lead!
Episode 2: Shots & Systems
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February 3, 2021
57 minutes
Dave Lankes & Mike Eisenberg
In this second episode (and our last simultaneous broadcast as part of the Publishers Weekly Skillset Podcast), Mike is all upset about how difficult it was to get an appointment for a Covid vaccine. “This should be a very manageable information problem! Why can’t we set up an easy system for everyone and anyone – using people, databases, systems, and the telephone?” Dave agrees and explains how libraries can support the rollout along with more long-term emergency support services and resources. And, as in every episode, they share “wazzup” and interesting bits from recent library news.
58 minutes
References & Resources
Kerlinger, F. (1986). Foundations of behavioral research (3rd ed.). New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston.
Institute for Museum and Library Services, US Federal Government. https://www.imls.gov/
Slijkerman, D., & Vlimmeren, T. . (2021). Living libraries: The house of the community around the world.
[A collection of essays on the changing role of public libraries in society.] available free online: https://www.bibliotheekutrecht.nl/living-libraries.html
DeForge, Jeanette (Updated Jan 29, 2021; Posted Jan 28, 2021) "Springfield librarians, elder affairs workers will help residents register online for COVID vaccines." Mass Live. https://www.masslive.com/news/2021/01/springfield-librarians-elder-affairs-workers-will-assist-residents-in-registering-online-for-covid-vaccines.html
Staeger, Steve (February 1, 2021). "The ‘vaccine whisperer’ helps find appointments for seniors." 9 News, Colorado. https://www.9news.com/article/news/local/next/vaccine-whisperer-covid-coronavirus-appointments/73-807a2efd-f20c-4a86-a826-48dd176cf593
Credits
Yoni Yemini from ACE Chicago Events
Hello, welcome to Library Bleed in the New Normal. My name is David Mike, and I'm here with Mike Eisenberg. We're going to be having an interesting conversation today. This is uh right for now at least, a special segment in the uh skill set podcast where we're really trying to figure out what does life look like in the new normal and how libraries uh are affected and can affect the community. We spent a little bit of time interviewing some folks who are setting that agenda, but we wanted a space that we could do a little decompressing talking around it, and that's what we're doing. I just want to quickly, uh before I hand it over to Mike, thank uh our sponsors, the University of South Carolina iSchool, uh Publishers Weekly, and Ace Chicago Events for helping put us together. Yanni, our behind the camera, well, I guess behind the microphone technician who's making this all happen. Good evening, Mike. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_00I'm doing well, Dave. Good to see you. Uh, I'm here in upstate New York, uh, our old haunt, um, hiding out from the virus. Um, but uh let's get right to it. Uh, just want to remind people, because uh this is only our second episode, that libraries leading the new normal uh came about because uh I woke up in the middle of the night going, wait a second. I mean, this is a terrible thing. This coronavirus and the things we've gone through and what we're all facing, and it's some tremendous tragedies. But also, there have been some maybe positives in terms of people who've taken a deep breath, and there's a some life-changing, sea change, groundbreaking, transformative things happening, like you know, Zoom meetings and online learning and parents hanging out with their kids and those kinds of things. And libraries and librarians have a major role in supporting things now, but also down the road, when we decide, do we really want to go back 100% to the way things were? And that's what we mean by the new normal. You know, are there some things that have happened now in this almost year off from the normal that we want to keep? And I think that's an interesting conversation to have. And I decided that uh, you know, the person I'd most like to talk to about this is my good friend and uh colleague, Dave Lankis. So uh that's what I contacted Dave, and he said sounds like a good idea. I just happened to do some podcasting with Publishers Weekly and the University of South Carolina, and why don't we just jump into that? Sounded good. And some of the topics we're gonna talk about in this uh podcast situation will be what does it mean because of COVID and lockdowns and things like that? What about social justice, kind of things that are happening in the Black Lives Matter movement, um, diversity? What about miss and disinformation, credibility verbation, just a little going on there? And we talked about that quite a bit in the last episode about information and insurrection. What about kids and learning and teachers and online virtual as well as face-to-face? And then virtual work. I mean, a lot of people, um librarians included, are working from home. Is there a way or a desire to weave that in? And so there's all kinds of things that uh we can talk about and will be talking about. But there is one thing that we always want to keep first and foremost, and that how what what is the effect and impact of libraries and librarians on this? Both how does it affect libraries and librarians, but how can libraries and librarians be a force for good in moving to the new normal? And so that is the uh the plan for the podcast. Um, we're gonna we structure each episode with these intros, which we're doing right now, and then Dave and I will take a pause and then we'll talk about what's up, what's up with him, what's up with me, real short, and then we'll jump into our main topic for the podcast. And today's topic is gonna be about COVID uh-19 vaccinations and the whole vaccination uh challenge that the country is facing right now, and and the world in some ways, uh, that we'll be talking about. And we'll take that in two blocks of about 10 to 15 minutes each. Uh and in the future, sometimes we'll have some guest speakers. And then we'll close with the required uh final uh bit in each of our podcasts, and that's the awesome library thingy of the episode. And Dave will have one and I will too. So with that, I'll uh turn it back to Dave to see if he has any comments or questions or uh or uh things to add to that.
SPEAKER_01No, I think you did well. I think um once again we're getting a little bit more loose on our second one, so um I'm looking forward to it. And uh let's get going.
SPEAKER_00All right, let's get to it. Yanni, give us a little uh uh break music, and then we'll come right in with uh what's up, and I think it's a good idea. Well, um, I'll give it a start, Dave. What's up with me? First of all, again, being here in upstate New York, last uh weekend we had uh anywhere between 10 and 15 below zero. It's been a while since I've been in that kind of temperature, uh, but it's been really wonderful to be up here. And uh, you know, it's a different world now than it used to be with the internet, and I have full internet access here in the backwoods, and there's a cell tower that I can see. It's almost line of sight. So now I even have great cell service and and access. So, but what's up with me is uh trying to get vaccinated. You know, I'm 71 years old, I qualify, I'm a resident here right now in New York State. And so I, you know, got online just like everybody else, and it was a nightmare. And uh it was really frustrating. And I spent hours and hours and hours, and then just by stroke of luck on Saturday morning, there was an appointment up in Potsdam, New York, which is about three hours or more away from here, and I clicked on it and I got it, and then I was able to get one for Carol, my wife, for the next day. She couldn't get one for Saturday, but we got one for Sunday, and we got in the car and we drove off. But the whole way about it, I'm thinking, is yeah, I'm lucky. You know, I know how to work the system, I know how to search for things. I'm a trained librarian, after all. But what do the other people do? And and how and it just shouldn't be. So I thought that'd be a good topic for us, and that's my what's up. And I got vaccinated, and it was it was easy. Woohoo!
SPEAKER_01So how about you, Dave? What's up? You're gonna go clubbing later now with your vaccination.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01Before I get into it, I I think it's important. You you you clearly have been spending time in many different places. People need a geography lesson because you said upstate New York, but you lied. Because, as we all know, there's New York City. Upstate New York is basically Westchester County. Then you've got central New York, the northern tier, the southern tier, the western. Anyway. What's up with me? I'm in the Capitol District.
SPEAKER_00I'm in the Capitol District. There you go.
SPEAKER_01This this week has been a perfect example of the life of an academic administrator. Um, I I I'll I I know unless Johnny gets his way, we're not actually doing video, but I'm showing Mike a copy of a book that I've been spending way too much time with recently. And I don't know if Jeff Katzer assigned this to you when you were back in the doctoral days.
SPEAKER_00Of course he did. Of course he did.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we were both Mike and I are both a product of Syracuse University's uh doctoral program. And I've been reading Foundations of Behavioral Research by Fred Curlinger, uh, the third edition. I think he's now up to fit to fifth. And so that was fun. And then um doing that, figuring out how we can get uh proper course enrollments and how credit hour increases divide by faculty load, divide by class type, divide by my sanity. And then today learned that um we were invited to a second round of an IMLS grant. So, you know, there's there's been there's been I've always said that a professor is is three things. They're they're a uh they're a writer, they're a secretary, and they are a um performer. And so, you know, between teaching, research, and service, I've been doing them all anyway. So, yes, it's been fun.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that that that that is really interesting, and I'm really glad that I'm no longer the dean um having to uh do those things. But again, I I will say that uh uh when I was dean, it was actually the most rewarding and creative thing that I did. Um so uh I do it again in a heartbeat, but not but not this heartbeat, not this lifetime. All right. So that sounds pretty good, Dave. That sounds really interesting. And yes, I remember those classes with Jeff. By the way, I just wanted to say to people that may not be aware that IMLS is the Institute for Museum and Library Services. It is a federal agency, it is somewhat independent, it's not under any of the other major uh uh cabinet uh um agencies and divisions, and it's just for libraries and museums, and it's a wonderful um agency that has supported the field very well. Okay, and we'll probably be talking about them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because there's an interesting conversation going on right now, which is most uh the majority of foreign governments have something called, you know, Ministry of Culture, um, which where libraries and museums normally sit, they also include music and the arts, and ours is not. And so the closest comparable thing we have is IMLS, but it's it's a different beast. But then there's now a discussion about whether they want to elevate IMLS to be a cabinet level office of culture. So we'll have to talk about that in the future. Maybe we'll get LMLS folks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because you know, there's yeah, that that's an interesting possibility. All right. So we'll take another just very short break, Yanni, and then we'll come back and get to our main topic, which is uh COVID, COVID vaccinations, information, libraries, and what do we do about cleaning up this mess and getting everybody vaccinated? So take it away, Yanni. And that is um, you know, it shouldn't be that hard to get us all vaccinated. You know, you see the movies. What's the one with Dustin Hoffman where they're you know the Ebola breakout and whatever, and the the minute they figure out what the vaccine is, the whole world is vaccinated like the next week. Now, I'm not saying it should be like that, but there should be a little more systematic rollout. I mean, it really isn't or shouldn't be that that complicated. But the way it is has rolled out, there's no central organization either on the national level or even on the state level. I mean, the states are supposed to be in charge, but if you call up the state thing, well, first of all, you know, you're lucky if you get through in an hour and a half, and if you do get through, um, they will help you, and then they'll say, Well, I'm sorry there are no appointments, and they'll say, call back tomorrow. And tomorrow you start all over again. Now, some states have waiting lists, I'm told. I said that to a friend who's in Florida, and they laughed at me and said, uh, yeah, you just let me know how that's gonna work because it's not working here and I can't get vaccinated. And then it's different in my home state of Washington, and it's different here in New York and everything else. And I was able to work the system. I mean, I qualify. I'm 71. My wife is, uh I'm not gonna give her age, but she qualifies, and she uh is also um an at-risk person because of her asthma and things. So we qualify, but you know, it was the constantly adding in the same information over and over, um, starting from scratch every time, um, clicking, renewing, and then it wouldn't let you renew. And I figured out the gaming and blah, blah, blah. And then sure enough, as I said, Saturday morning, just happened to say, all right, I'll give it another try, because I would do that for hours every day. And all of a sudden I'm clicking and I'm noticing that new times are coming up, and there are actually some availability thing. So I quickly scheduled Carol for some time in February, and then um I kept clicking. And by the way, we're not right here. You know, it would be nice if I could only drive 45 minutes or an hour to SUNY Albany or something. But no, but I got an appointment in Potsdam for her in February, and I click, click, click, and all of a sudden one opens up for the same day for Saturday. So I quickly get on and I go back in, try to get her on. No, no, but I got one for her for the next day. So, yes, we wound up staying in a motel in Plat in uh Potsdam, New York, overnight with 15 below zero, and they have a very nice bagel place in town. So it was it was okay. But again, I mean, should that be the way it is? And can't we do something about that? And what is the role of libraries in that? You know, we're information people, and I have some ideas about that, but uh I just wanted to put it out there that we should be thinking about even if the government is not doing the right thing or doing an efficient and effective thing, can libraries help with this kind of a problem now where you got into COVID, but also getting ready for the next one, because there will be a next something that is just like this in some way. What do you think?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, it's interesting. I I always when you say the government, right? It's like, well, which one are we talking about? Because one of the things that you know I've been fascinating when I've been talking to some really outstanding uh public library directors, and I'm thinking Gina Milsap out in Topeka, Kansas, she says, we are the government. The public library is part of the government. And uh she had experience, I won't speak for her, but during Kansas, when it had its uh experiment with lack of taxations and such, there was in many ways the public library was the only functioning part of government standing. And they still had to provide service, they had to connect literacy services, they brought in and did partnerships with not-for-profits and for-profit companies to make things happen. And um, you know, I think that that we do a disservice that I think libraries do an incredible job at providing service and connecting their community, but we can't disconnect the fact that that is as a part of the government. Um, and there's an efficiency that can be learned there. Now, as you move in and you talk about connecting and distributing and different services, things get complicated. And I think absolutely. I think one of the things that that I was a big proponent of, and we saw happen in San Francisco, we saw happen in many places, which was librarians actually doing some of the contact tracing. Uh, and there was some resistance because, well, librarians are about privacy, and this would break privacy. And I said, that's why we want librarians there, because they do respect privacy. They're going to ensure that that's considered. And if we want people to stay home with COVID, we better make sure they're hooked up to other services that can make sure that they're able to stay home and connected. And that's what librarians do is connect to these different services and find out.
SPEAKER_00Trust me, there's a service trusted service. Librarians are trusted, people trust, because like we both know that librarians will twist themselves into pretzels in order to be careful and um respect privacy and make sure the data and make sure it's done right and even-handed. So, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right. I don't know who's gonna jump in first.
SPEAKER_01Go ahead, you do it. So one more thing, and then which is because I know you want to talk about and we'll we'll evolve into the sort of disaster responsiveness, but to jump ahead on one specific point, which is if we want librarians to be able to play this role, particularly the idea that librarians can serve as a safety net without for people without a lot of technology, so they have a place to go, a person to talk to, etc., then um one of the things that is a really hot topic right now is are they first responders and should they therefore be in part of the pool of the one A's and one Bs that are getting vaccinated? Um there's a huge before the vaccines came out, you know, the idea that libraries were going to be opening and not thought of that way was kind of terrifying.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I thought of that, particularly if they're opening. I mean, if they're online and stuff, then not necessarily. And I think that's a whole nother question. But um, but what I'm thinking is if, yes, uh, and I have some examples, and and in fact, my awesome library Thingy is an example of a library that's kind of doing the kind of thing I'm I might be advocating for related to this. But it's not widespread, it's not systematic, and libraries haven't accepted that when there is a crisis, that we kick in with another level or type of service that we do that's not uh that's probably beyond what we normally do on a daily basis, but that it's systematic and it's planned and we kick it in. You know, after Katrina, libraries were a major source where people went to to find out about their loved ones and where they might be. There was a a massive interchange about that. It's where people went for information about how to fill out forms to get you know um finances and housing and uh and the like. So but again, we haven't developed systematic systems that trigger in place that I think that libraries can do. So it's not just a one-off that, oh, this library is doing a great job with doing that stuff, but that one over here doesn't know what to do about that. So developing systems and protocols and ways of doing this, I think would be interesting if libraries are willing to assume that. I'll just say one last thing. Libraries today, right? Um, we've always had telephone reference. Well, we always had reference services and information services, and then we had telephone reference service and things. And now there's a lot of live chats, right, in in libraries where they they do live chat. So why couldn't we use that infrastructure when there's a crisis or an emergency, like getting people vaccination appointments? It's fairly simple. And if we did a one-on-one, where when someone contacts their library, either through telephone or online or whatever, that librarian either assigns that person who's called in or um chatted in somebody else to work with them until they get the appointment or they do it. In other words, we've develop a system where we don't say, well, I'm sorry, we didn't be able to do it today. Give us a call back tomorrow and we'll try it again. So that's the kind of thing that I'm thinking about, that we build in a really systemic role if we want to uh assume that in the new normal, libraries are maybe not first responders, but maybe second responders, maybe information responders, maybe we put up the networks if necessary. I'll shut up. Your turn.
SPEAKER_01Don Means at Gigabit Libraries uh talks about libraries as second responders and what that means. Um but uh you know just to deconstruct a couple of those things, uh uh because you there's a lot. A couple of things that that struck me. And I'll I guess I'll work backwards to Katrina and start start with the uh the forward side, which is don't we pay taxes to public health officials to do these kinds of things? Don't we um have the idea that that you know why do libraries have to take on everything? Um that that we do have community connections, we can be part of those community connections, but at the same time, when we're talking about building systems, is there a reason that it's the libraries and not other Institutions or partnering with other institutions. Um, so that's a that's a great question.
SPEAKER_00That is a a perfect question. And my answer is yes, there are public health, and that is part of uh their responsibility, but no, most public health officials and public health workers are not necessarily information professionals. And they're trained in a certain types of information and dissemination, but they're not creative information problem solvers the way trained librarians are to be able to know the ins and outs and the back doors and all the other stuff. So where the information, and of course we want to team up with them, but librarians should be uniquely um able to find and deliver this kind of service. That's the way I think. I'm an information professional. Oh, my whole family and friends, they all turn to me whenever there's this kind of a problem to do it, right? I took reference.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think that makes a lot of sense, which is I I think oftentimes public libraries think they have to do everything. And the notion of saying, look, what we do really well, some of the logistics, but a lot of the outreach. I mean, the one of the things that drives me freaking nuts is the idea that you know, it's like you you hear these amazing, brilliant, wonderful people, and they're doing amazing, wonderful things about you know, helping doctors across borders and helping people in all these hard situations. And they come and they they give these inspirational talks to libraries, uh, librarians and library conferences. And the the first question almost inevitably is how can libraries help? And after having spent an hour of this wonderful sainted human being telling you about the importance of human connection, telling you about the importance of helping people understand and equip themselves, they turn around and say, Well, we do have some pamphlets that you could put in the lobby, you know, or we do have, wouldn't it be nice if we could go and you know have a talk in your building? As if you know, the librarians, the trained information professionals aren't adding value to that. And so absolutely, that notion of being able to reach out and connect. We we had a situation, so the year before I came to South Carolina was the well, I've heard it referred to as the thousand-year flood. I think we're down now to to 800-year flood, but uh a bit massive flooding event. Yeah. And um, and and the university did something, and they've done it since for COVID as well. I really respect. They said, hey, this thing is interesting, it's happening in our backyard. Here are some grants to faculty, go see what's happening. And a lot of the iSchool faculty got some and they did studies about sort of how libraries respond in this time. And um, and and I won't spend the next three hours telling you about the wonderful things, but there were some wonderful things. Um, and but they what they found is that when FEMA showed up, they they FEMA quickly learned that they went to the public libraries, not just because they had a bookmobile they could load full of water, and not just because they usually had power, but because that was a trusted place that the community would feel comfortable coming, having these discussions and connecting.
SPEAKER_00So what I uh yes, and you know, libraries are now written into the FEMA regulations, and that's a great first step. But what I think we lack is the list of protocols and actions that each library might consider taking. And that's something I think we might come up with. Um, because you know there's gonna be another flood in South Carolina, you know it's coming and whatever. Isn't that happening every week in Charleston? I mean, you know, the I I mean, I hate to say I love Charleston. I have good friends there. But wouldn't it be nice if the libraries across South Carolina and South Carolina public health and FEMA and all this other stuff know that bam, this is the services that libraries are going to provide during this crisis. You know, I think it was in your last uh the last time that you talked about your awesome library thingy, right? It was about uh the Toronto library that reached out to its uh older clients and whatever. See, that's another thing that we can do because we have to reach those who are not coming to us, but are there and don't know enough to contact us. So what if libraries had lists of their um patrons, their library customers, and we reached out to those in particular situations to say, hey, do you need help with getting your COVID vaccine? We can help, and here's how we did. And maybe we create, you know, one of those phone tree kind of things, or it's like a campaign calling thing. I don't know, but I can just imagine, wouldn't it be great if I could connect with a librarian who's gonna get me that appointment and work with me until I'm satisfied and safe? Wouldn't that be something?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and this, and then that and then I want to reach back to when you were talking about Katrina because a very interesting thing happened with Katrina. And I know you know Beth Patin and other folks who are working on that area, but the role that libraries play and the partnership to me gets wrapped up in the story about what happened post-Katrina, which was and actually not the libraries, it's a story about the the New Orleans newspapers, the Times Picky Yoon, which was they had a series of online comments and what's going on in the community back. This was back in the internet when you could actually have open comments and you know not turn into a Nazi propaganda camp. But um, and what they quickly realized was having one for New Orleans didn't work, they needed one community by community, parish by parish, and uh ward by ward. And what happened is these online community discussion groups based on the ward became the authoritative sources. And what would happen is the citizens would go to FEMA, they would go to state officials, they would say, How do I get housing? How do I apply for this relief? How do I whatever? And they would get wrong answers, they get conflicting answers. And so what they do is they went online and they found out that citizens who gave consistently correct answers, in other words, fought that fight, became the authorities, and that idea that authority, um, well, credibility, trustworthiness, yes, shifted from the authority, this is my title, this is what I'm supposed to know, to reliability, speaking of Curlinger and Research, meaning that they were consistently getting reliable answers over and over again, and their status didn't matter. And I when I think about this world, because we're living in a divided world where just because you're president, depending on which side of January 20th you're on, is either you know horrible and terrible and needs to be deposed or whatever, um, doesn't give you credibility anymore. It's having that relationship, it's consistently connecting, consistently helping at a local level, which libraries are perfectly situated for. And so when we talk about building these systems, I don't think it's I think it's a system only in the sense that it connects a bunch, connects well and without a lot of friction, the very local systems that which is what takes into the context and works in Plattsburgh and works in Charleston and works across the way. And and absolutely, the way that we should be able to quickly marshal those resources and sort of roll out, roll out the librarian support army to partner with public health, to partner because we know our local communities, to get on the phone and and roll it out. I think absolutely that's important.
SPEAKER_00All right. So we're gonna take a short break in order to catch our breath, and then we're gonna come back and talk a little more about this because I think we're really on to something. And uh uh I'd like to develop the ideas more uh a little more and not just think about uh uh public libraries, but academic and school and schools like yours and mine and things like that. So, Yani, we're gonna take a short break and then we'll come back and we will uh have part two of uh what do we do about getting vaccinated? All right, Dave. So I'll give you first shot uh in segment two here. Uh what else did you want to follow up on or put on the table?
SPEAKER_01The two things I I one seems odd, but one that I think is central to what librarians do. So I'll start with the odd one first. Um I think that we need to talk about intellectual property and vaccinations. Uh we intellectual property is something that we don't is central to how libraries of all types, academics, schools, how we function. I think the pandemic has done an amazing job of demonstrating just how fractured and problematic our copyright patent and intellectual property regime is in the United States, um, from the idea that one of the first services we saw out of school and public libraries were story times online, going to Facebook and reading out books. And suddenly the question was, did you just violate copyright in doing that? And authors and publishers have been fantastic about given a pass, but it's still there about what you can and cannot do online in person. But the one that hit me was that so the United States has just invested billions and billions of dollars in the development of these vaccinations. They funded the vaccinations, um, and they bought them. And now what happens is those patents are owned by the people who developed them, Merck and the pharmaceutical companies. And the question becomes, and this has a role, this has two things. One, um, we talk about needing to produce more vaccinations. Partly, we can't go to different manufacturers because they haven't licensed the technology. And when you look in an international context, who gets to make these vaccines for Africa and Asia and New Guinea and all these, when in essence, the US is already not only did we pay for it with public funding, but we let them keep the patents on it afterwards. I think that's an interesting conversation.
SPEAKER_00Um, and then that's really important. So, what you're saying is our whole intellectual property system really needs to be rethought in uh 21st century technology and manufacturing and type environment. We really need to rethink a lot of this stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and the public goods side of this, this idea that uh you know a huge amount of the industrial research complex, of which I include universities uh and these private companies, you know, we get a lot of public funding for producing some really amazing stuff, but we don't necessarily follow up on it. Um, some of the data, whether the data is available or not available from these clinic, these randomized clinical trials. A lot of that data gets reported to the FDA, but is kept confidential by these companies. Can we get in there and begin to interrogate and look at that? And and so once again, I don't care what end of the ideological spectrum, starting with the Bush and then Obama and then Trump administrations, all of them have tried to create regulations where federally funded publications from federally funded research dollars will be released out into the world, and we're still fighting this fight to make that happen. And so when you talk about best practices and systems and vaccinations and transparency, because that's the other part of this is the how do we get people to believe that the vaccines aren't Bill Gates putting chips in our arms? Um, I think a lot of that can come from transparency. And one of the barriers to that level of transparency to build that trust in the vaccination in these systems is an intellectual property barrier. And I want people to make money. I want to make money, but I also want to be healthy.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's a public good aspect of it that we've really ignored. And also, you know, the government's role. Um, there are some that say, you know, you know, the the negative part about the government, you know, don't trust anybody that says, hi, I'm here from the government and I'm here to help. But the truth is the government did help. The government created the internet. You know, the government um has put money uh in terms of providing bandwidth and access uh to rural communities. Now it's not enough, and it needs to be more, and we've talked about that a little last time. But you know, they've done a lot of good and a lot of this research, and just what you said, that uh they've they've paid for scholarships for students who go to school and learn how to do microbiology and then go to work for these companies. I mean, we're all in this together, and there is something called the public good. So I'm I'm with you, and that's uh you know, the uh a different take on this uh problem, but an important one because there will be another situation that comes up like this. And the the same thing could be said about um wireless and internet access and things, that you know, who should pay for that? Well, there's a public good in certain communities and things. And my community here had to fight for years in order to get that new cell tower, finally, and uh it's a public health, it's a public safety issue first and foremost, and it should not be that the economics um take over everything. So I'm with you there.
SPEAKER_01So here's my question for you, which is I mentioned at the end of it, that that how do we build train intellectual property and transparency can feed into the notion of building trust. And I know one of the things that you're really interested in and thinking a lot about is this idea of information and misinformation. And as you said, we talked about a little bit with our insurrection, but I think we need to spend a little time talking about anti-vaxxers and uh the idea of what's the role of libraries in public health from that perspective.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, you know, it's uh I you may you you you uh and others may think it's funny, but I would talk to um what I think is the world's most successful way of dealing with this, and it's called Wikipedia, and it's called Jimmy Wales. And you know, Wikipedia is not perfect by any means, and there's a lot of um difficulty and controversy and whatever. But Wikipedia has built a scalable system for trying to identify and provide um credible and accurate information. And I think they've done a pretty good job of it, actually. Um, if you're not gonna invest in commercial editors and all that kind of thing and pay people lots and lots of money, which is actually impractical, then I would like to have a conversation with Jimmy Wales about what does he see? Uh and then for people that don't know, Jimmy Wells is the person that started Wikipedia and does it without making a profit. There are no ads on Wikipedia, and Wikipedia is supported with donations and gifts from small people like us, and they're constantly um having to ask. Um, you know, every now and then, it seems around holiday time, you get a thing on the screen when you come up from Wikipedia that says, you know, are you willing to make a donation? But I have a lot of respect for what they did because they did it for that public good again. And, you know, I use Wikipedia all the time, and uh for a lot of things it's it's pretty credible. And that and when it's not, it says it there. It says, you know, don't necessarily trust what's here. So I would ask that. I would also use crowdsourcing and rating systems, like we do. Now, it's really funny, you know, you you must do the same thing. You're gonna go buy a new uh coffee uh uh grinder or a uh you know a coffee maker. And so you look at the reviews on uh Amazon or something else and whatever, and there are 372 reviews, and there's always you know 10 to 20 that just trash it as the the worst possible thing you could possibly buy. But then you look at it overall and you kind of weigh them and whatever, and you make a decision. You know, there may be some of that ways for us to do more of that type of rating uh and whatever. And I think there's for the search engine type folks, people, I think there's some money to be made in that kind of uh system. So those are two answers.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's interesting you mentioned Wikipedia. I I'm teaching a class this semester and they have an assignment. The assignment is more or less listen to an interview and then go find a bunch of resources based on the topic. And I had a student who put up going, I know to avoid Wikipedia, what other types of sources should I avoid? Now these are graduate students in library science. Yeah. And um and I said, Okay, why would you avoid Wikipedia? I think it's an excellent resource, particularly as a starting, and if you want a great place to sort of start your research, it's it's a great place to do it. Um, and it's funny when you mentioned no one has the money to buy a bunch of editors to to create this stuff. Of course, that was Encyclopedia Britannica and it was the world. It's like right, yeah, and and those are always we can thank for that.
SPEAKER_00Remember Incarna? Right. Incarna came out and destroyed, you know, and Bill bought us a third-rate encyclopedia, put it online, and put it Britannica out of business.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01And then when then Wikipedia put put put that out of business.
SPEAKER_00We put Incarna because it's a better product, right? Because people people um uh spoke with their fingers, right? They they they stopped going to Incarta and doing that, and they they went over to a a better source. But yes, because librarians, we've done a disservice, and certainly classroom teachers have and whatever, in in putting out there that, well, you can't cite Wikipedia, you can't go to Wikipedia, you can't do it. That that was a you know a really kind of mistake.
SPEAKER_01Be careful. Some librarians and some teachers. In fact, that was part of the rest of my response was here is the page for librarians, Wikipedian librarians. Here are the the Wikipedia days that academic libraries and public libraries have where they spend literally a day going through, adding citations, checking citations. Yeah. Um, I was talking with, let's just say, a very large library, international library vendor that happens to have a couple of letters for a name, and several years ago, about actually about 10 years ago, because you know, we're old now. Uh, and he was actually he offered to, in essence, I don't know if the words buy it, but support it. Um, that that seeing the value of it, seeing this is an open resource, seeing the multiple editors. And so, and and I remember in one of my first books when my first very first citation was to Wikipedia, and my second citation was, and if you just and if you're upset, I just cited Wikipedia, get over it. And and I got all these emails from librarians around the world going, Yeah, now if we could just get you Wikisight, we'll be fine. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, it it it is, and again, it's not perfect, and we can make it better or whatever, but it it is us. Wikipedia is us, it's a collective way, and we're supposed to be self-correcting. And so that's one way that that we could do that. And maybe in local communities and things, uh, librarians can do that too. You remember what you and I had uh said about the the reference project that we were trying to create, that if a librarian recommends a source, you know, if you go to a librarian and you go to your online uh reference chat to a librarian and you ask for a recommendation, you can pretty much trust that's going to be a pretty credible source. That's that's powerful. And if there was a way for us to capture that and whatever, and for libraries and librarians to have a role in that, when it comes to things like COVID and other things, uh I think it would be important. The other, uh before I forget, because I'm an old guy and I do forget things, um, I wanted to say that we don't also want to have every library have it to reinvent the wheel. So if we are able to come up with a list of protocols on how to do something or trusted sites and whatever, we need to share those so that we have the collective knowledge and wisdom of the library community that we can bring to bear on these things.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01And that's where context comes in. I mean, jumping back to the to the discussion about Red Katrina, which is the example I always give is if a reporter calls up and asks for a good site for hate groups recruiting on the internet, the Stormfront website is the best resource ever. If a 10 10-year-old's calling for after-school activities, probably not the same source. So, you know, it isn't inherent in the nature of the source that makes it good or bad. It's the context. And back to the idea of what's going to work with our first and second responder, it's the context. I I was uh recently there was a proposal going in about, and I think we talked about news deserts last time, or we talked about food deserts. Did we talk about news deserts? Where local papers Are disappearing. Yeah. And that libraries, all right, and libraries could jump into this. And once again, the pushback from librarians was we want the community to sort of educate themselves and become their own reporters. We'd be happy to support it. And I think that that's it.
SPEAKER_00We need libraries, should be the place that nurtures these things. The local library doesn't do have to do it all, but they provide a platform for that. I heard something on the radio about this nine-year-old kid that did a local newspaper in order to raise money to help support people in the in the pandemic. And he, I mean, you know, he got 25 or 50 subscribers or whatever that it supported it. I mean, local communities can do that. Look at you know, the news these days up here where I am. There's a Facebook group for the lake area here that people post pictures and all kinds of things. That's really kind of the local newspaper in some ways, although I do subscribe to the Schenectady Gazette, even when I'm in Seattle, and I check it, although uh the comments to the letters for the editor are fascinating. Um, Dave, we got about uh three to five minutes left in this segment at the most. So um um, you know, where's where should we go with this? Um how should we kind of try to tie things up? And I think we're gonna have a lot more discussions about the role of libraries and the new normal when it comes to you know climate change and mis and disinformation and all the kinds of uh pandemics, flooding, and all kinds of things like that. So um where do you think we should be uh moving the conversation, at least right now, to kind of pull things together?
SPEAKER_01I think that the idea that that libraries need to and I include academic and school libraries, special libraries, they need, you know, the their superpower in this is to take a community that's hurting, that needs guidance in an information crazy world, that they need to provide context specific what works in this environment in this context, that they need to provide a level of authority that comes from performance, that is instead of saying this is what the government says, what they say is this is what's worked and what's not. And I think that they don't and I and I think that one of the things that that we should come out of COVID, and we said this coming out of Katrina, we said this coming out of different hurricanes, but we need to be. We know that libraries, particularly public libraries, have a strong role to play in responsiveness to disasters. Um and they need to be rethought in terms of what role they play, and it's not just they're a building, it is this logistical support, it is this information connection, it is this people-to-people connection. And um I know there are great examples out there. We need to gather them and we need to um, as you say, create systems that can be contextualized but implemented broadly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I like the uh idea. I mean, I I would think right now, developing simple checklists, you can't put more than 10 items on them. What are the 10 responses or the five responses that every school library should do in times of a uh an environmental catastrophe, whether it's a hurricane or a fire or flooding or an earthquake or whatever? And the same thing for academic and public and whatever. What are what are those things? And then we can fill in the background, but we've got to limit it, you know, and then working with FEMA to really say substantially, all right, what do you mean? What is this? I like the idea of second responder role. Um and and what does that really look like? And can we flesh that out and um and share that and agree with that? Because you know, you know, right now we know if I was setting up a new library, I know how to set up an information service, reference service, I know how to build a collection, I know how to circulate and do things. But I don't know what is my my infrastructure of the five or ten things that I have to do if there is a local crisis. So I think that and I think that's reasonable. And it's from an information perspective. It's not that we're gonna cook meals, but we're gonna tell people, we're gonna help people know that we can get the information where they can get those meals. It's it's that kind of thing. It's all about information.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and one last point, which is the this needs to happen, particularly in outreach to underserved communities where libraries can be their best. If libraries show up into uh predominant populations of brown and and black people that they have misserved for years and suddenly say, Don't worry, we have the right answer for you, that's bad. If they instead they show up and say, Let's find together the best answers, let's find, all right, who are the elders here? Who are the who the people know what's going on? Let's let's give those folks, those voice, a platform and make them available. That's where the localness of libraries will really pull out. And that's where, you know, when they're talking about now sending vaccines to CVSs, the reason they're going to pharmacies is because in many of these communities, the pharmacy is the primary health care provider. And you know, let's look at the reality on the ground. And libraries need to be immensely and acutely aware what the realities are on the ground.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And what what about those librarians reaching out to CVS or to Walgreens or to Kinney drugs and say, how can we help you to get the word out properly to the people you need? How could we team up with you in order to do that? Because yes, that's where I got my COVID test um was at a drive-thru Walgreens. And so um, and I and it wasn't easy to actually schedule that. So yeah, I'm I'm with you 100%. And one of the things that so um I'm gonna end with just uh another little story is I turned to the University of Washington folks, and also I turned to the folks back at Syracuse, and I was gonna do this to you here about South Carolina. I think the iSchools and our students can launch this one-to-one help service for people in underserved communities on getting COVID vaccines. I think that if your students would make connections, let's say, to the African-American churches or just any churches, to community health centers, to local doctors who can't handle it themselves, and put together these pods and these teams of students and faculty, and then librarians and others that wanted to do it, to line up one-to-one. You know, you if you got 50 people doing it, then you got 50 people working with 50 people of need, and then when they resolve that person, then they can go on to the next one and thing. So I think that, and it has to be statewide, um, not statewide, but it has to be localized, like you said, contextualized. So um maybe a I and I know all the faculty and the students and the libraries, everybody's overwhelmed. But this is a crisis, and and this is you know, this is number one. And if I knew that I could contact the local librarian here to help me to line up with someone that's gonna help me through the the tricks and the trade, the ins and outs, um, to get that like what I did, right? I think that people would really uh respond to that. So yeah, we can't wait for the the users, the normal users, the normal library patrons to come to us. The libraries have to reach out into those underserved communities or never-served communities. So you there? I'm there. I'm on it. All right. Well then, um, we're gonna close this out. I hope uh people have found the conversation interesting. I I have, and and I always learn stuff from Dave, and I appreciate it. But what we normally do at this point is move ahead to our awesome library thingy. So, Yanni, give us just uh a little music so we get a chance to catch our breath and maybe get my notes in front of me. And then, Dave, you'll start out with your awesome library thingy, and then I will too. So cue the music. All right, Dave, what do you got? What's your awesome library thingy for this episode?
SPEAKER_01It is frighteningly enough, a book. Um, this is uh it comes out of the um Ultrek Library in the Netherlands. Um, a really amazing librarian, Than van Viermen, um, just retired, and they were going to have a big event to bring people from around the world in the conference, and then a COVID hit, and so they instead decided to produce a book. This book called Living Libraries, The House of the Community Around the World, uh, is a series of essays and articles, very approachable, beautiful color. I'm kind of jealous about the look of this one, um, on primarily public libraries, but talking about community-centered librarianship in, and I'm just going to read some of the locations: Nepal, Haiti, Colombia, Bulgaria, Australia, Papua New Guinea, Timor-Lest, Fiji, Belgium, India, Qatar, Kenya, uh, Italy, Sweden, Singapore, New Zealand. And it is just if you want a picture of what international public librarianship looks like uh at its best, it's a free e-book. You can download it from the Utrecht Library. We'll put it in the Facebook um site so you can get a link to it. And um it's actually going to save me a lot of time working on my next book because I'm just gonna steal most of it. But it it is the amazing work that librarians are doing to bring communities together. Some of them we talked about before being government, some but Nepal has amazing libraries that aren't run by the government, they're run by not-for-profits and talks about how they do outreach and connect it in different ways. So it's just an absolutely fabulous book. Um, I can't recommend it highly enough. It happens to have a chapter by me in it, but just ignore that one and read the rest. Could you repeat the title?
SPEAKER_00Could you repeat the title?
SPEAKER_01Yep. Living Libraries, the house of the community around the world.
SPEAKER_00I love that. I I think that's great. So uh my awesome library thingy relates to the uh the very topic we were talking about and the example I was talking about. And I came across an article. The Springfield, Massachusetts Public Library is helping Springfield seniors make vaccine vaccine appointments. And uh there's an article in uh the local newspaper, the Springfield, uh well, or it maybe it's on the library page. I don't know. It said, after hearing about the complaints, uh what they did is they uh uh uh worked with the Department of Elder Affairs to team up in order to help people who are 75 years or older uh make their appointments. And the city librarian and the department uh set up a phone help service to help those people do that. Uh I also noted that there are other people doing this individually. There was uh an article in the uh in Colorado about a woman uh who is doing, they call her the vaccine whisperer because she knows how to get appointments. So she's doing that kind of thing. And they're doing that in some other communities as well. And I I applaud that. I would just like to see something systematic that kicks in that reaches thousands and thousands. Um, but uh uh those two made me feel really good. And I thought that was pretty awesome library thingies.
SPEAKER_01Very much, very much so. And I think that's gonna bring it to an end for this time. I want to thank uh you all for listening. I want to thank Publishers Weekly, the University of South Carolina, and Ace Chicago Events uh for helping out. Yanni for being our producer, Mike Eisenberg, uh our amazing uh musician who played our our uh intro and mid-musics. Uh please subscribe and rate us on Apple, iTunes, Stitcher, Podcasts, Spotify, whatever you, wherever you are, find us and do it. Uh, and then contact us via the Facebook group Libraries Lead in the New Normal. Mike, thank you. Please stay warm.
SPEAKER_00Okay, Dave. Thanks. You take care, and thanks everybody for listening. Thank you, Yanni, too. Bye now.
